For People with Bishop Rob Wright
For People with Bishop Rob Wright
#10 We Believe!
We believe death is not to be feared. We believe that death does not end life, it only changes life. Fear loves the last word, but it doesn’t deserve it, and naming our fears out loud is the first act of courage.
In this episode, Melissa and Bishop Wright have a conversation about fear, death, and faith. How shall we live a good life that will result in us dying a good death? Listen in for the full conversation.
Read For Faith, the companion devotional.
What I worry about is that when we let fear have the last word, I want to get in a good argument with fear. I want to get into a good argument with it. I want to have an argument with my fears using the good and affirming words of Scripture. And ultimately, down that road, I want to believe more about what Scripture says about me than I want to believe what my fears say about me.
Melissa:Welcome to For People with Bishop Rob Wright. I'm Melissa Rau and this is a podcast inspired by Bishop Wright's For Faith weekly devotional. Bishop Wright has named this week's devotional "We believe death is not to be feared." Bishop, would you like to share your devotion?
Bishop Wright:Sure. We believe death is not to be feared. We believe that death does not end life, it only changes life. We believe, despite the best efforts of poets and preachers and sages, words fail to adequately describe the reality beyond this reality. In that place some call heaven, we believe we will see reality clearer than we can see it now. And in that place we will know a communion with the divine in all reality that we cannot imagine presently. This begs the question, then, how shall we live a good life that will result in us dying a good death? Words we might say as we finish a good life and prepare for a good death could echo St. Paul's words. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
Melissa:Of course, Bishop, that that devotion is based off of 2 Timothy chapter 4, verses 6 through 8 and 16 through 18. And so I'm just curious, you've got a lot of big power statements in that, you know, talking about words failing and living a good life in order to have a good death. Where are you sitting in all of this right now in your own personal life?
Bishop Wright:I'm sitting in Austin, Texas right now. But um, well, I I tell you, if you're asking me a personal question, I am sitting um as a 61-year-old realizing that there's a lot of my life that is in the rear view mirror, um, and only some in the you know, in the windscreen. And so um, without being morbid, um, you know, I want to make my remaining days, uh, maybe even decades, count. Um, and I don't want to be afraid. My faith in uh Jesus Christ invites me to not be afraid. Um, and so I think about Howard Thurman, uh, who asked the question, uh, what do I need to do to die a good death? Um and I'm sitting uh as a pastor to lots of people uh who are um facing death with fear, uh, and and understandably so. Um and I am trying to be an encourager, is where I'm sitting uh for people to hold the hands of God uh in their own life and uh and be pulled forward through um that fear as uh simply biological entity and realize that they are a spiritual entity as well. And uh and I'm sitting with uh the words of our tradition, which say in death, life has not ended, but it is changed. So I I'm coming to all of this personally, professionally, uh publicly, and and trying to and trying to um hold all of that uh together.
Melissa:Yeah. Can you speak more into the life has not ended? It's simply changed.
Bishop Wright:Yeah, I I think this is this is a core tenet of uh of what it means to be a follower of Jesus. Um and uh we we believe that there is a reality beyond this reality. Um and we believe that the, as I said, poets and preachers and sages have sort of failed to adequately describe it. Um we believe there's a reality beyond this belief, beyond this uh reality, and we believe uh through the eyes of faith that we will be in the nearer company of God, and we believe that we will be in the near company of one another. Um, you know, as St. Paul has said, uh we see through a glass dimly now, but then uh, you know, as some other folks say, on that great getting up morning, uh we will we will see uh face to face, each other face to face, uh, and the divine face-to-face and all reality face to face. And so, in many ways, um our lives, in some ways, you could say are dress rehearsal uh for the freedom, the liberty, the joy uh that we will know on a distant shore.
Melissa:You know, the phrase as above, so below is really coming to mind right now. And even the word reality that you've said a couple of times in it in your devotion, uh that's that's a nebulous word for me right now. But it it also doesn't escape me that Jesus in the Bible was quoted to say that the kingdom of heaven is within.
Bishop Wright:Yeah.
Melissa:And so what indeed are we actually afraid of? Why are we waiting? Why are we waiting for something that may or may not come to pass? I don't know. Got any insight on that?
Bishop Wright:Well, I'm I mean, I I think there's there's a both and isn't there, I think. I think that there are glimpses of heaven in this life for us, if we want to use that language. I think alignment with the divine, I think being at peace with ourselves, I think it um taming our fears and giving them to our faith. Uh, I think that that is heaven. I think um moving out of the hell of self uh selfishness, uh and um you know, moving out of the hell of being driven entirely uh by ego. Uh when we when we move in those directions, we are moving towards heaven. Uh and uh or peace or shalom, as uh as another tradition would use that word. And I think this is the and and I think, uh, and I see this only through the eyes of faith. I as I've said I'm I'm a preacher, and so I've I also fail to have adequate words. And I believe, and as much as we can know shalom and alignment and peace here as we uh grow up spiritually and embrace faith over fear, I think there is another reality uh where uh a communion, a sweeter communion, uh, can be ours. Um how do we describe that? We don't know. I've heard people say um, like raindrops returning to the sea. I've heard people say, you know, spirits returning to their essence, uh, et cetera, et cetera. So all these images that we use um through the eyes of faith, uh, we believe that we will we will know, as again, a Bible verse, we will know even uh then, even now, as we are being known. Um, and so there'll be some sort of veil that'll be thrown back and we'll be reconciled. Uh, and I believe that. And so, in many ways, life, you know, to your point, life is sort of a dress rehearsal uh for that. You know, I always remind people look at the silly, silliness of our division one to the other, um, Republicans and Democrats and conservatives and progressives and gay and straight and uh all of these divisions, black and white that we've imposed, you know, there won't be any segregation in heaven. We will finally be all together. And so, in many ways, if we want to uh bring heaven uh to earth, we can start living that way now, uh, as if we are already family. Uh, and when you think about the great men and women uh of multiple faiths and of history, uh somehow they lived out that incredibly. Um they saw no division, they only saw siblings, and they were able to mobilize people in those directions out of the authenticity of their living. Uh, and so yeah, I mean, I think you're absolutely right. There is something that we can do now, there is a reality we can embrace now. Even Jesus said, uh, you know, on earth as it is in heaven, when he taught us to pray, the unity of both of those ideas.
Melissa:So not only does Jesus say that the kingdom of heaven or the kingdom of God is within, it's also the kingdom of heaven is near, right? Like it's near, it's within grasp. And you know, I think one of the most frequently said themes in the Bible is do not be afraid. And yet.
Bishop Wright:And yet we say all the other exactly. Right.
Melissa:I'm curious if you can speak into some some practical or tangible ways that we might embrace or lean into fear to transmute it or transform it into acceptance.
Bishop Wright:You know, this is such a good question, yeah, because I I think that the more I get out and I talk to folks and all kinds of folks, the more I realize that, you know, people are looking for sort of new and sexy things and uh, you know, the new spiritual widget uh and uh or the new spiritual organizing principle. But there'll never ever be a substitute for going deep, for going deep, going deep in the words of Jesus for us who are followers of Jesus, uh, and uh and trying to make those words come alive, you know, in our in our minutes, in our hours, in our days. And so I think what is practical uh is to begin to name the fears, uh name them, but just begin to name them. What are they? You know, maybe have the most sober moment you've ever had with yourself. Find the courage to sit down, maybe with pen and paper or on your phone, whatever it takes, and just just tell the truth. What am I actually afraid of? What is that piercing fear that I walk around that is uh that is a cloud over me? Uh it may stem all the way back to our family of origin. Uh it may be now, it may be um that uh I'm an imposter. I mean, you hear people say that a lot. It may be that I'll lose everything, um, I'll never be loved, um, no one will ever choose me. It could be lots of things. Excuse me, people carry around, you know, the immense uh weight of fear uh that begin to shape their words and their character and their direction and ultimately their destiny. And Jesus is this wonderful off-ramp for our fears. He just says, give them to me. Um and I think that so what what and so the next practical thing we do after we name fears is begin to talk back to them. And and we can do this with our help. We can do this with therapists, we can do this with pastors, we can do this with spiritually mature friends. And so what I what I worry about is that when we let fear have the last word, I want to get in a good argument with fear. I want to get into a good argument with it, you know, and I want to I want to I want to have an argument with my fears uh using uh the good and affirming words uh of scripture. Uh, and and ultimately down that road, I want to believe more uh about what scripture says about me than I want to believe what my fears say about me. I want to, I want to um I want to resource, bring Jesus' spiritual imagination into my spiritual imagination and use that as a resource to talk back to my fears. Uh when my fears tell me X, I want to, I want to latch myself uh to what Jesus says about my my life and what is possible, um uh, et cetera. I think that those are some practical things, but don't let your fears have the last word. Um and you know, I would also say to you, too, um, you know, really going back to your first question, uh, one of the reasons why I encourage people um to face their fears, particularly we're talking about um death and dying today, is because uh while I'm not quite yet there myself, I've had the immense privilege of being with people who did not fear death. Um, even on their, you know, in their last days. They accepted it as a part of life, and through the eyes of faith, they believed um that they that they were not ended, that uh what was going to happen is that uh life was going to change. Now, um that doesn't mean that they didn't experience as they were thinking through all that, praying through all that, um, that they weren't going to miss loved ones or the touch of a loved one or whatever, whatever comforts and delights they had in this world. Uh, it just means that they had done their work before they got to their deathbed. And uh and they were now relying on the strength of that. I I think I've told you know folks on this podcast before, I remember when I was a very young minister and I was dispatched to this woman's bedside. Uh, and um, you know, I'm you know, just new and you know, naive and hadn't done this before. And I'm there at her bedside just blathering on, you know, and this woman who was near death reached her hand out to me and said, I know, honey, I know. So she's ministering to me and her death, uh, but she was not afraid. And and my ang, my anxiety was messing up her vibe, you know.
Melissa:And you know, not only does she live on, like, you know, I believe her soul, her spirit, whatever, but like she's lived on in this podcast because I think you've talked about her a couple of times and like in your memory, and you know, she's alive.
Bishop Wright:Oh, it's so it's so important. And and you know, and this Melissa really brings up another point too. And and somehow, what we believe also, uh, we who follow Jesus, is that uh somehow um the reality of people who go uh before us uh to the closer company of God, they somehow leave a residue, a spirit, an example, an inspiration. Um, you know, as one person has described for me, they've just moved to another room in the house. And so, and so, you know, when we come together into worship, uh we call their names, those who have loved us, inspired us, maybe even those that we need to um forgive uh andor reconcile. All that can be done posthumously. Um and that's a spiritual reality as well. We can we can say our sorries and uh and we can release uh grudges and resentments and hurts and pains. We can do all of this because we believe that heaven and earth continue to stay in a dialogue and that that's a spiritual right reality as well. And even we're getting ready to go into what's what we call all souls and all saints days, where we remember the dead and we remember the the uh the great warriors of the faith. And uh I love uh actually all saints and I love to preach uh All Saints Day because um I do have an abiding sense of being surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. Um, you know, as Maya Angela, who says, When you see me, you see 10,000 thousands. Um, you know, and so and so the ancestors are with us, uh, the great men and women of faith are with us, the angels, the patriarchs, the prophets are with us. We are in a long parade of the faithful. And so that gives me uh something to hold on to uh even as I face my own mortality.
Melissa:Well, on that note, we were talking about not being afraid of death, we're not afraid of death, and that because we're not afraid of death, we live a good life. And so it reminded me of a popular song Tim McGraw wrote, um, live like you are dying. Right. And I when I think about the faithful witnesses and the saints that have come before us, it's like, and even Jesus himself, when he turned towards the cross, he lived with such bold conviction, unabashed, unapologetic, and like lived into his purpose with full gusto. And I think maybe that's what St. Paul's talking about. Like, I've won the race.
Bishop Wright:You know, and and I I think there's there's nothing better, you know. I guess the the last quarter of our life, we shouldn't wait uh to live faithfully, but our last quarter should be our most faithful. Um, you know, I was I was with uh um you know uh Pastor Lowndes, uh, who was Jimmy Carter's pastor over his last few years. And uh, you know, before uh uh President Carter really took to the bed, um, he would interrogate Pastor Lowndes, you know, uh every visit, and uh he would ask him, um, where have you been? And uh what have you done, and who have you met, and how can I help? Um and then you know, he and he and Rosalind both said to Pastor Lowndes, you know, um, we just want to be as faithful as we can. Now, this is a man who I think uh most people would agree, uh, lived his faith out loud, went the extra mile, and was roundly criticized for trying to hold an ethical and moral leadership uh together with a modern American presidency. And yet he just wanted to finish his race as faithfully as he could. And as Pastor Lowndes was telling uh, you know, a room full of us, you know, this, uh I got really choked up because, you know, here he had never given up this idea that this is important, this is urgent, it requires my best. Um, it wasn't, you know, what some people call fire insurance. He wasn't trying to be a good boy in his last chapter so he could sneak into heaven. Uh he he wanted to respond. He was he wanted to continue to respond uh to God's goodness with faithfulness. Um he didn't want to just sort of uh slide in, or uh his faith was not on autopilot, or uh he wasn't uh recounting for God all the good deeds he had previously done. Uh but faithfulness, living a good life so he could die, a good death, was a matter uh of uh, you know, uh of not quite obsession, but but certainly a lot of thought uh daily. And uh and I I that's so inspirational to me. Um and again, it wasn't about earning anything. Uh, this is critical uh for people to understand. It was about responding already to the innumerable blessings that he and his wife and his family uh had received.
Melissa:Amen. Well, keep the faith and do not fear.
Bishop Wright:Yes? Amen.
Melissa:Bishop, thank you so much. And listeners, thank you for tuning in to For People. You can follow us on Instagram and Facebook at Bishop Rob Wright or by visiting www.forpeople.digital. Please subscribe, leave a review, and we'll be back with you next week.