For People with Bishop Rob Wright
For People with Bishop Rob Wright
#3 We Believe
True freedom emerges not from the world's prescription of unbridled self-indulgence, but through faithful obedience."Truth in advertising" is how Bishop Wright describes Jesus' approach to discipleship. Unlike our romantic relationships, where we rarely calculate what love will cost us before diving in, Jesus takes a refreshingly honest approach. He stands at the threshold and asks us to pause, reflect, and genuinely count the cost before committing to follow him.
In this episode, Melissa and Bishop Wright have a conversation that explores this radical invitation found in Luke 14, where Jesus uses hyperbolic language about "hating" family members not as a literal command, but to emphasize a hierarchy of commitments. When we prioritize pleasing others above following God's path, we become trapped in what Bishop Wright calls "the quicksand of people-pleasing," which ultimately diminishes our capacity for authentic discipleship. Listen in for the full conversation.
Read For Faith, the companion devotional.
The invitation is come and see, come and know God, you know, and I think what we end up getting as a collateral benefit is knowing something of ourselves that we would not otherwise know. I have been a pastor for a long time and I have met people over the course of my ministry who have been surprised at themselves that intellectually sitting at the sort of doorway, if you will they could have never imagined a life as selfless as the life that they end up living.
Melissa:Welcome to Four People with Bishop Rob Wright. I'm Melissa Rau and this is a conversation inspired by For Faith, a weekly devotion sent out every Friday. You can find a link to this week's For Faith and a link to subscribe in the episode's description. Over the course of this next season, bishop Wright is framing his devotions and our conversations around the theme We Believe as we make our way through the lectionary. Good morning, bishop.
Bishop Wright:Good morning. For Good morning, how are you?
Melissa:I'm well. I am looking forward to our third topic under the banner we Believe and this is all about that. We believe there is a cost to following Jesus.
Bishop Wright:Well, yeah, we believe that, not just randomly, but we believe that in the 14th chapter of the gospel, according to Luke, jesus says as much. Right, he says that we ought to count the costs, and so that's how we get here.
Melissa:Okay, and so you frame it by quoting David Brooks, the author. Now, the quote comes from David Brooks the Wrong Definition of Love, and he, of course, is the author of the bestselling book how to Know a Person, and so you kind of frame it through the lens of David Brooks' quote about what it means to fall in love through the lens of David Brooks's quote about what it means to fall in love.
Bishop Wright:Yeah, so before I get really going here, let me just say that you know I read a number of opinion pieces and it's been interesting to watch David Brooks's evolution. You know, I don't necessarily I mean, I take a lot of people's points around politics and various other things but I've been watching David Brooks around ethics and morals for a while now, and so he's been struck recently about, you know, the eroding definition, or the wrongheaded definition of love. And so this wonderful article, the Wrong Definition of Love it was August 28th for those who want to read it, august 28th of this year the Wrong Definition of Love. And he writes and I think he's right about this, he writes this, and I quote what motivates us to falling in love is not a decision to make for our own benefit, but a submission, a poetic surrender that you assent to, often without counting the cost right, so that, of course, thinking about the Bible and seeing that word, it sort of struck the distinction that he's making.
Bishop Wright:Now here's the distinction. You know, when I met my wife you know we're walking down the street and I was captured just by her beauty and got to know something of her and wanted to spend more time with her. We went to lunch the next day We've been together ever since that's 28 years ago of what marriage would cost me in terms of de-centering myself and centering her needs and negotiating you know all the things that we do in a relationship. That's why we say that marriage is the most significant spiritual formation that anybody can ever do right. So I never counted the cost. We've been, we had one wedding and we've had about four marriages, which means we keep getting to intersections, where we negotiate, where we learn, where we sort of push through right. But as Brooks says, it's, it's a poetic surrender right that you ascend to, and often certainly not in those days when we met a long time ago, I didn't sit down and do sort of a pros and cons spreadsheet, right.
Bishop Wright:But Jesus does something different. He actually asks us to consider the cost. He actually asks us are you sure, do you want to walk this way? Let me tell you what this way is like. And then, in this wonderful lesson from the 14th chapter, he tells us that there are competing loyalties here. And do you want to move through these competing loyalties? One of family, you know certainly possessions. Do you want to move through that? Do you want to keep this journey with God and Jesus Christ? Do you want to keep that central? And so what I like about that is how respectful Jesus is. I like to say that Jesus is truth in advertising, no sort of bait and switch with Jesus.
Melissa:Yeah, like I have this idea about negotiating and that you just even shared that your marriage. You've gone through four iterations, if you will, and I was going to say I think I've been married more times than that, bishop.
Bishop Wright:Yeah.
Melissa:But there's a negotiation and I appreciate the fact that he's like you got to count the costs, but I don't know that he forecloses the sense that there might be renegotiating or pivoting, if you will. When we get it wrong and I think so many times folks are like all right, yeah, you've done it, You're out, Goodbye.
Bishop Wright:Yeah, no, I like love of spouses and of children, that there are going to be difficult seasons and that there are going to be joyful, easy seasons, but that it's going to be evolving. And what happens is that we get a clarity as we go along, right, and so there's even a hierarchy, and Jesus is talking about this hierarchy. He's saying, you know, power, possessions, prominence, all of this sort of stuff that we all have some degree of desire for, and he uses hyperbolic language. He says unless you hate mother or father, it's hyperbolic, just to make a point, just to say you know, if we're going to keep God first, then let us keep God first, which is a good, I think, warning and flag for us, because so many of us would be better followers if I can use that language if we didn't get stuck in the quicksand of people-pleasing, if we didn't get stuck in the quicksand of people pleasing and so that buys us off, that lowers our ceiling. So I like that he names that in this relationship.
Melissa:I saw a meme not too long ago and I reposted it on my own Facebook page because it really struck me. It said something like unconditional love does not mean unconditional tolerance. We need to unlearn that.
Bishop Wright:Yeah.
Melissa:And I've sat with that. Do you have any thoughts on that, Bishop?
Bishop Wright:Well, it's just an important distinction that this person is making. I mean, some people get really worried and nervous that to talk about unconditional love means that somehow Jesus is saying I'm supposed to lay down and just be a doormat for people and so no. So I like when people begin to sort of talk about I won't use the term guardrails, but begin to talk about the distinctions that are in relationship. Yeah, no, in fact, jesus is going the extra mile himself so that, so that we care for ourselves in this relationship with him, by saying you know, count the costs. Is this the direction you really want for your life? Do you want to go with me? Do you want to travel with me? And here's what the landscape is like up ahead.
Bishop Wright:I think that Jesus treats us with incredible dignity, right, and you know and this is, I think you know, he's not a bully, right, it's always an invitation. I mean, there's no condemnation in this. He's just simply describing for us that, if you want to come, this is what's involved, right, and so you know what I like about that is there's space for growth. I say the best yes I can today, understanding that that yes is going to get clarified. It's likely going to get deeper, it could get broader, you know, and sometimes people get to intersections where they realize they've gone as far as they want to go and that's it.
Bishop Wright:And then sometimes people, because of love, because of wanting to put God first, they end up well beyond what they thought was possible, not only for themselves but in terms of their relationship with God. So yeah, jesus is basically just standing at the door, if you will, opening the door and saying, hey, come on if you like. I don't know where we get treated better than that. Only, if you like. No condemnation, no shame, no guilt. And, of course, he encounters people all through the Gospels where he does exactly the same thing.
Melissa:Okay, so I'm sitting with the tension of the transactional connotation of all of this. You know, cost investment and juxtaposed by free, and so I get that and I think it's wonderful and good. And so how does one enter into? By putting down? Is it expectations? Can someone have expectations for entering the door? Yeah, understanding the cost.
Bishop Wright:Sure, of course. I mean, I think the psalmist says taste and see, right. So I think that the invitation is come and see, come and know God, and I think what we end up getting as a collateral benefit is knowing something of ourselves that we would not otherwise know. I think we grow. I mean, I have been a pastor for a long time and I have met people over the course of my ministry who have been surprised at themselves that intellectually, sitting at the sort of doorway, if you will, they could have never imagined a life as selfless as the life that they end up living. You know, I think it's amazing to watch young ladies become mothers and then become this reservoir of self-giving. You know, and many of them are sort of blown away, that this little thing, little helpless thing, could pull out of them such selflessness. Right, and so this is, you know, what Jesus does is. You know, he just sort of describes life.
Bishop Wright:And you know, as to freedom, you know, I mean talking about a contrast or talking about sort of an irony is that the freedom actually comes out of obedience when it comes to God. Right, I mean, that's, that's what we are selling, if we're selling anything, which is this, you know, what does the world say? The world says get a bunch of stuff, get a bunch of power, you know, use your sexuality haphazardly hither and yon, no guardrails on it. And then we say that's free. Abuse your body, you know, take in lots of substances, and then you'll be free, right. And then what we find, however, experientially, is that I'm not free.
Bishop Wright:I find that I'm a slave, then, to hedonism, I'm a slave to brokenness, I'm addicted to all these sorts of things. And so, you know, the other side of that coin is come and give yourself to a God that loves you and wants better for you than you could ever want for yourself. Now, that sounds like freedom. And, as I say at the end of the meditation, free from the seductive grip of possessions, power and prominence Not that those things can't accrue to us, but that you're not a slave to them. Now, that's freedom. I'm not a slave to people's opinions, right. I'm not a slave to all these sorts of things. I've found a path in life that I know that God deeply cares for me and that I, in response to that great love and care, now respond, I show up in the world as compassionate. Now, that's freedom.
Melissa:And we believe that there is a cost to following Jesus.
Bishop Wright:We absolutely do believe it. We have to get over a lot of silliness and get on with some good living.
Melissa:Thank you for your thoughts and thank you, listeners, for tuning in to For People. You can follow us on Instagram and Facebook at Bishop Rob Wright, or by visiting www. forpeople. digital. Please subscribe, leave a review and we'll be back with you next week.