Reaching with Holle Tubbs

Pain has a way of making everything feel personal, like the universe is singling you out. Holle Tubbs, diocesan youth missioner for the Diocese of Atlanta, joins us for our Summer Short series to talk about a different path: reaching for God without turning faith into a bargain for control.

In this episode, Melissa and Holle explore the relationship between faith, humility, and a kind of grit that isn't defined by winning, but by refusing to give up. They also discuss vulnerability as intimacy, the hard work of depersonalizing pain, and the relief that comes when we can finally say, “This hurts,” without assuming it is punishment. Listen in for the full conversation.

Holle Tubbs has served in formation ministry leadership since 2003, working in both nondenominational and Episcopal contexts. After spending several years in ministry in the Pacific Northwest, she returned to the South and began serving her hometown parish (St. Thomas Episcopal Church in Columbus, GA) as the Director of Youth Ministry & Media. She joined the Bishop’s Staff of the Diocese of Atlanta in 2021.

In her diocesan role, Holle develops EYCDIOATL programs, supports and mobilizes youth ministers and young people, and partners with the Mikell Board of Governors to oversee the ministry of Mikell Camp & Conference Center in Toccoa, GA. She also leads The Keep/Watch Project, an Atlanta-based suicide prevention ministry offering curriculum and training for individuals, congregations, and faith-based organizations.

Beyond the Diocese, Holle collaborates with ministry leaders across the Church to equip students, strengthen intergenerational ministry, and explore fresh ways to engage Gen Z/Gen Alpha. She is a partner with the Forma Network and serves on the Youth Ministry Council of Advice for The Episcopal Church. A passionate advocate for mental health and leadership development, Holle is committed to helping young people and their leaders thrive. 

Transcript

Pain Is Not Punishment

Holle Tubbs 0:00

The vulnerability of just being like, oh, I am one of many pieces here. And if it rains on the righteous and the wicked alike, like it's just raining. So there's a depersonalization to that that I think starts with crisis where I go. Pain is just part of the package. It is not a punishment. It is not God really just needing to like crack a lesson into me. It is, it is God going, Yeah, it's life is chaos sometimes, and I'm here with you in it. And the vulnerability of going, yes, and that hurts.

Welcome And Summer Short Series

Melissa 0:30

Welcome to For People with Bishop Rob Wright. I'm Melissa Rau, and this is a conversation inspired by For Faith, a weekly devotion sent out every Friday. You can find a link to this week's For Faith and a link to subscribe in the episode's description. Bishop Wright is away for the month of July for continuing education and Sabbath. And so over the course of those weeks, we have guest contributors writing his weekly devotion and joining us on For People for an annual Summer Short Series. And today we have Holly Tubbs, who serves as diocesan youth missioner for the Diocese of Atlanta. Welcome, Holly.

Holle Tubbs 1:18

Thank you. It's great to be with you.

Melissa 1:20

Yay.

Devotion Reading About Reaching

Melissa 1:21

So this week's devotion you named Reaching. And it's really unlike other devotions which are paired with one specific reading. You were inspired by all of this week's lectionary readings. And so, readers, you can find those by visiting lectionarypage.net. And it goes like this reaching. Sunshine radiates through this Sunday's Psalms. Life is stable. Labor yields fruit, and marriage is a partnership with generational blessings. There have been times when I've mistaken the psalmist contentment as a formula for certainty. I will put my faith in God and He will make my life better. Unfortunately, faith doesn't erase life's chaos. There's war on the doorstep and genocide down the street. Loved ones disappoint. Doctors call with bad news, and other drivers switch lanes without signaling. When faith doesn't accommodate these realities, every crisis can feel like God's absence. Jesus pulls us out of this false binary. Comparing God's kingdom to a woman making bread. She does the work of mixing and kneading, then trusts the yeast to do what yeast does. She participates fully but knows she cannot force the rising. The working and waiting in both sunshine and storms is faith. It's reaching for heaven, trusting that the Apostle Paul was right when he said that nothing will stop a loving God from reaching back. This reaching opens us. There's no intimacy without vulnerability. Living intimately with God will toughen our feet, even as it makes our heart, even as it makes our hearts more tender. Meanwhile, God meets our faith with faithfulness, closer than the next breath, bigger than the sky, and always within reach. Okay, so that's fire, Miss Holly.

Holle Tubbs 3:31

Thanks.

Melissa 3:32

So I'm I'm curious.

Reaching In Crisis Like A Child

Melissa 3:35

Overall, what really stood out most to you with all of these messages? I mean, you pulled out reaching. Do you want to unpack reaching a little bit for us?

Holle Tubbs 3:44

Yeah. Yeah. Uh so I think looking at all these readings together, I I tend to scripture tends to really speak loudly to me in crisis, right? And I think that um, you know, I'm I'm good and and things are well. But life is just a little crisis-y right now. And so all of those together, the reaching, um, you know, I think of the the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, like that's a very beautiful stylized version of a reach, like the creation of man kind of. Um, but I feel like my reaching lately has just been like a toddler wanting uppies. And there's such a vulnerability in that. Um and the vulnerability of reaching is where God is meeting me in this season. And so that is definitely what stuck out in those readings.

Melissa 4:42

What stuck out to me just now, though, is the fact that you said something like, you know, you really can meet God, especially in those crisis moments. Like it's in scripture that you find hope. I'm summarizing, of course. Whereas I think a lot of other people might feel completely disconnected in those times of crisis. And so where do you find, I guess, the grit in order to lean in to scripture, to lean into God rather than feel disconnected?

Holle Tubbs 5:10

Yeah.

Yeast, Grit, And Faith That Ferments

Holle Tubbs 5:11

I mean, sometimes I do. Sometimes I, you know, I wrote in there that when our faith can't accommodate certain realities, every crisis can feel like God's absence. And I have certainly experienced crisis as God's absence. I think um really reaching back into tradit uh tradition, the tradition, especially of the Christian mystics, who see this feeling of God's absence as just more evidence of God's goodness, you know, and God's presence. And how how can you have the shadow of God without God? And and so, um, or what you would experience as the shadow of God. Um, you know, and and the the gospel, the the parable of the leaven really stuck out to me in this. And so I think there's a transformation that's that Jesus kind of puts in there in a quick little throwaway before he really spends time on other on other images of what the kingdom of God is like. And I think that sometimes the grit is just a stubbornness to not give up. And if you don't give up, well, you gotta figure out a way to keep going, you know? And um, and so the fermentation, right? The the fermentation of faith, the kingdom of God is yeast, this metabolic process where bacteria transforms one thing into something else in the absence of oxygen. Crisis sucks the oxygen out of the room. And so I think that crisis is this own spiritual metabolic process that deprives our illusions of the conditions that you survive. And so the grit, I guess, is just when I can find it, because I can't always, I think it's just a humility of going, my assumptions and my certainties and my coping mechanisms are exposed as very, very flimsy in the face of crisis. And so I am forced to learn a different way of living if I want to keep being here. Um, and and so, and you know, I don't believe God causes crisis, but I do, you know, Martin Luther taught that suffering drives me to the desperation of grace. And so, um, yeah, I I don't know. There's the I think the the point for me is that there's not a formula I've found other than reaching.

Vulnerability That Depersonalizes Pain

Melissa 7:52

I love that. Well, you also call out the fact that uh intimacy without vulnerability isn't really a thing, right? Um, and you you I like this is my favorite line. Living intimately with God will toughen our feet even as it makes our hearts more tender. So I'm curious if you can really talk about what vulnerability looks like in those moments of crisis.

Holle Tubbs 8:16

I work closely with Sally Ulrey, and she's really gifted at articulating this Benedictine, you know, um, leadership through Benedectine lens. And one of the things she says uh she names first is this idea of stability as looking around at reality as it is, not as we want it to be or as I wish it was, and and just recognizing that God is not absent in that. I think the vulnerability of recognizing God is not absent in that is like a hard thing to do. In my ego, I really believe I am the center of all things. And so when things go wrong, it feels like this very personal kind of thing that God or life has out for me. And I think the vulnerability of just being like, oh, I am one of many pieces here. And if it rains on the righteous and the wicked alike, like it's just raining. So there's a depersonalization to that that I think starts um with with crisis where I go. Pain is just part of the package, it is not a punishment, it is not um, it is not God really just needing to like crack a lesson into me. It is it is God going, yeah, it's life is chaos sometimes, and I'm here with you in it. And the vulnerability of going, yes, and that hurts, you know. Um I think the word vulnerable comes from this idea of to be woundable, you know. Um, and so if I can say to God, I get the whole cosmology of this thing, and maybe it's not personal, but this hurts. This hurts me so deeply. And and to acknowledge to God that that hurts is where it starts for me. Um, and I think that there are so many things that I, you know, we we just made a joke earlier about Enneagram. Um, I'm an Enneagram eight, and so I really vulnerability just feels so itchy to me. Like, um, but love always involves the possibility of loss, and loving God involves the possibility of losing an image of God or losing an image of faith that is some sort of um protective factor against what life is.

Melissa 10:33

Well, from this fellow eight to my other fellow eight across from me, I'm with you there. And I understand too, like I wonder too, if it's sometimes we have crisis because we're gonna lose lose the the image of ourselves, you know, losing the idea of who we are in it. Um you know, you really talked uh very articulately about vulnerability and intimacy. And I guess I'm just I'm wondering with the whole reaching back idea, what is so hard about that? I

The Fear Of Depending On God

Melissa 11:09

I mean, like where I I understand the idea of vulnerability. I guess is it our job? I I I don't know. I sometimes I'm just like, okay, God, will you just come get me? You can just go up crying out loud.

Holle Tubbs 11:23

But I think therein lies a reach, right? I mean, reaching admits dependence, right? Like it, it I I think, I think the emotional center of my entire like every faith crisis I have, not life crisis, but like faith crisis, is it requires admitting that I cannot secure my own life. And to acknowledge that I need God. I need a good God. Like I need a good God. I need a good God to be real. And the whole thing with faith is that I cannot prove to you that a good God is real. Like I can give you compelling witness testimony and my own thoughts and this beautiful rich tradition. But um, you know, I said to the bishop one time, I hope it's okay that I say this. Um, he was getting ready to process in for like a confirmation or an ordination. I was kind of standing in the back. And and um, if anyone knows Bishop Wright, he's much more casual, prefers things, much more casual, but you know, these big diocesan um events, he really gets out the miter, and there's the whole, it's a very majestic looking, you know, vestments. And and I was just standing back there with him before he persisted, and I just had this thought, and I said, you know, do you ever wonder, like, or do you ever just does it hit you that we're doing all of this? Like, like we're doing all of this. You're dressed up like that, wearing that giant hat, and I'm here making a living, and all these people are here with their families and their Sunday best based on our best guess of how the universe works. Like, this is what we have decided to throw our lot in with. But at the end of the day, like, and that pays for my retirement, right? I'm very fortunate. Like that best guess is is has yielded institutions and movements. And and here we are together in our best guess. And there is a vulnerability in going, it is it is essentially faith, it is sacred, is a sacred guess, but it is it is me trusting because I just need a good God to be real. Um, and the dependence of that is terrifying, especially if you've built your identity like I have around, you know, things like feeling self-sufficient or competent or kind of being dependable. Um, and and reaching also risks disappointment. And so, you know, um, and that's how it can loose loosen our certainty, not just our certainty in in what we believe in, um, but our certainty in ourselves. So, I mean, all of this is it's it's like, of course it's hard. Of course it's hard. Um, if you have a survival instinct, losing any kind of certainty requires a little bit of an override of that.

Melissa 14:16

Yeah, yeah. So we've been talking a lot about our own personal relationship with God.

Reaching Together Through Community Worship

Melissa 14:22

And I'm curious what you might think as you accompany communities of faith, especially young people. How might we engage this scripture, all of these passages in community with one another, side by side?

Holle Tubbs 14:39

Yeah, that's a good question. That's a good question. You're good at this. The psalm, right? The psalm, the psalm and the psalms in the reading today are um, I wrote something about how this used to feel like this kind of devotional, personal contract, like I'll do this, I'll praise you, God, and you'll make my life better. But what's interesting is those are psalms of ascent. And so they're not actually like these personal devotionals. They're they were meant to be sung in community as people were literally going up to Jerusalem for these festivals. Um, and I have to imagine people singing that psalm together when life was very hard. You know, people of all walks are singing this together. Um so I think I don't know, engaging in community, there is a vulnerability to reaching in front of each other, you know. And there's also a vulnerability in reaching for each other. Um, I I really, if I'm completely honest, I I struggle with the cognitively, with the idea of an interventionist God.

Praying For A Sick Parent

Holle Tubbs 15:49

I, you know, we're we're in a family. Um, my my mom is getting tested right now for a lot of things. She's been very sick. And my mom and I are quite close. And um, and I I journaled after we kind of found out that she's going through this this scary um process. And I just kept writing, God, please let my mom be okay. Please let my mom be okay. Just let her be okay. You know, she was my introduction to the human race. She had me when she was a teenager. We grew up together. Please let her be okay. And and I wrote that and I just thought, man, how foolish am I for praying this when there's like big things happening, you know? There is war on the doorstep and genocide down the street. And I want God to heal my mom. Like, and so there was this real judgment that I gave to myself for wanting it. And the miracle that I reached for in that moment was a friend where I just shared those things with her. And she said, Of course you want that. You can pray for lots of different things at once. You can reach to God for lots of different things at once. And you're and love, of course you want that. Love is wanting that for someone. And and so the vulnerability of sharing that with someone, even though I knew it wasn't gonna make me look like a very good Christian, you know, was that friend was a miracle to me. And in that moment, and so I think that the vulnerability of reaching up can sometimes be expressed in the vulnerability of reaching across and just saying to someone else who is experiencing this life thing, like, I need help. I don't know if you can fix this, and maybe I don't need you to, but like, I am struggling here and I don't know what to do with that. And I really, I mean, God, God has never not met me there. And I I think that faithfulness can can kind of come at you vertically and also horizontally in that way.

Melissa 17:57

Amen. Miss Holly, what's your mom's name?

Holle Tubbs 18:00

Pamela.

Melissa 18:02

Pamela. Well, I'm gonna do this thing, and I would like to pray.

A Communal Prayer For Pamela

Melissa 18:06

And uh maybe this is a form of reaching because when we reach for other people too, I think God is in that. And so I'd like to pray. I would love that. And also with you. Gracious God, we're so grateful for your presence in our lives, for your presence within every single one of us, and the fact that you are indeed a communal God, that you reach back time after time after time again in pure faithfulness. So thank you for your faith in us. Thank you for your faith in creation. I especially thank you for the gift of Holly and the gift of the love that she shares for her mom, Pamela. So I ask your grace upon them both. May your presence feel real and even in the midst of chaos and crisis, that they can trust that you are with them every step of the way. May we be well, may we be healed, may we be whole in your name. Amen. Amen.

Holle Tubbs 19:15

Thank you.

Melissa 19:16

Thank you for sharing your story. We are with you and we are with Pamela, and I'm sure our listeners are joining us in that. And so thank you for your time. Thank you. Thank you

Follow, Support, And Subscribe

Speaker 2 19:28

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